Loss of David

David made a decision to take himself off the board because of objections to a characterization of some LV fans and southerners over all that he found objectionable in the "This is What We are Dealing... LINK " Thread. He asked for it to be removed but from the start our intention has been to moved things off the UCONN main board to other spots and not become a nanny state. He was invited to post counter experience but chose to leave instead. I am very sorry for his leaving as I have always enjoyed David's posting but I, personally, believe community review and social pressure are better tools for moderation than the personal whims and consciences of a small group. David is certainly welcome anytime he wishes to post.

DavidinNaples.

Ohhhh... bummer.  I liked him.

I hope that you are right. I really enjoy his posts, and I remember how much fun some of you had with him down at the Thanksgiving Tournament. (The pix were terrific!)

Yeah, I think he just stepped away for a short bit, just as I and many others have done countless times in the past... no big deal.

AF

I agree that pinot is the very epitome of a well-balanced, mature, fair-minded, reasonable and rational person. He has shown himself to be all of those things over many many years on the forums. But he is also human and is just as susceptible to the various human frailties as the rest of us are.

If what he and you wrote in that thread had just one substitution, you both would have been understandably outraged. Change ‘southern’ and ‘south’ to women, African-American, Mexican, Native-American, Hispanic, Asian, or French [well, maybe not French as the French really are jerks – see, now you’ve got me doing it], and you yourself would have seen the post as offensive as David saw pinot’s and yours.

You both are very good men and have proven that over the years, but the sentiments that you each expressed in that thread were thick with an ironic form  of hypocrisy. I believe that David reacted to those posts just as you and pinot would have reacted to the very same things said about other groups you see yourself as champions of.

Bias and bigotry are insidious and we are all it’s prey. How many times have we heard a good person excuse their bias by saying that they seen ‘it’ with their own eyes…that a lifetime of experience with ‘those’ people tells them that their beliefs are not just acceptable, but that they are provably correct and rational… that they’re just telling an obvious truth. Re-read that thread… you may see what David saw.

Personally, I suppose I most closely align with meyers on this… we are all hypocrites and we are all both the victims of bias and victimizers armed with bias… What I am about to write is most definitely NOT directed at you, David --- I don’t take offense to much and would be happy if society would relax a bit and take a calmer approach to life and it’s bumps. Today’s offense culture that seems to celebrate the approach of bullying the bullies has never seemed to me to be a particularly rational response to me. Accepting folks as they are and making the personal choice to embrace an allowance for frictions between folks to occur without fanning up a flame seems a better way to me…. But then, what do I know…

BTW, I do happily and wholeheartedly support the subdued delete policy on this board… airing the differences is the best path to take in my humble opinion.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

PINOT: “In that short excerpt, you see the fundamental hypocrisy of the southern[women’s, African-American, Mexican, Native-American, Hispanic, Asian, ….] culture. ~~~~ But, I've been long puzzled by the fundamental dishonesty of southern[women’s, African-American, Mexican, Native-American, Hispanic, Asian, ….] culture.”

PINOT: “This is the schizophrenic aspect of the South[women, African-Americans, Mexicans, Native-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, ….]. ~~~~ But, behind closed doors, amongst friends n' family, they're nasty, narrow-minded, foul-mouthed parochial bigots. It's the "go to church on Sunday, but, pinch the strippers' ass on Saturday night" phenomena. …”

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

ICE: “Pinot's description is very close to my experience and my wife's who served as a chaplain in a Greenville, SC hospital near Bob Jones University. A regular concern of those brought into the emergency room on Saturday nights with injuries from bar fights was whether they would be patched up and home in time for church Sunday morning. Many were repeat visitors to the ER.”

ICE: “Pinot's experience is one stretching across a breadth of time. I will note that it is a cultural characteristic, also, included in numerous pieces of literature from across the south including but not limited to, "Inherit the Wind," "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil," "To Kill a Mockingbird," and "Gone with the Wind," along with the works of Tennessee Williams, William Faulkner, and HL Menchen among numerous others. Pinot does note that it is not limited to its southern style but, also, has expression in the church, both in Catholicism and Protestentism.”

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

AF

I stand by what I wrote and would have had no hesitancy to have used any group that I thought the comments applied to. The very point is among many of those you listed I have never had the experience we were describing. I have had that experience on more than one occasion in religious communities and call it out wherever I encounter it and when I become aware of it in my own life I have called myself on it, as well. We only grow when we shine light onto our flaws and allow the possibility of transformation. it is for that reason I encouraged David to offer a different perspective grown from different experiences. Meyers is absolutely correct in his thoughts on hypocrisy and few groups that observation of Paul in Romans than Martin Luther for whom it was a realization central to his theology.

They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, and then expect a different outcome. They also say that those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Since I'm the one who's post offended David, and got this whole pot boiling over, it's either the height of arrogance for me to chime in again, or, I'm a pretty slow learner. At the very least, I did not anticipate the deep reaction I would engender.

I too agree with Meyers on his thoughts on hypocrisy. And, I certainly agree with AF about his observation that, had "southern/South" been replace with an ethnicity, religion, gender, nationality, race, disability, then folks would be understandably outraged.

But, I didn't use any of those words. Not to be a wise-ass, but, last I knew, folks from south of the Mason-Dixon line are not recognized as a disadvantaged community, who have earned the same consideration as the folks whom AF mentions.

I write from personal observation, having spent the majority of my childhood, and about half of the first 30 years of my life, living in KY and VA. Now, that's not the deep south, but, since the post that I originally responded to came from Tennesee (which borders KY and VA), it struck a chord with me.

I have read, re-read, and re-re-read my posts which upset David. Other than putting more qualification in those posts - adding something like "in my experience", "some southerners", "often" - rather than putting things so black/white, all or nothing - I honestly wouldn't change much. When I say "I have been long perplexed" by what I described as hypocrisy, I meant it. Folks have noted that they feel welcome in the south more so than up north, that the people are warmer (that's a stereotype too, guys, just a nice one - jes' sayin' ). Stereotype or not, I agree. My late, died-in-the-wool Yankee father told the story of how good it was to hear the warm, welcoming drawl of the restaurant waitress when he got close to KY on his drive back from my New York wedding. "Southern Hospitality" is a cliche for a reason.

But - in my experience, without repeating everything again - I believe that there's another side, born out not only by my subjective experience, but by various demographic data on education, discrimination, voting rights, gay rights, women's rights, anti-Semitic/Catholic/Muslim (in fact, regarding many of the groups AF cites in his post). And, this side is in striking contrast to the sweet, southern-hospitality facet.

Lastly, I certainly wasn't trolling, to deliberately incite or upset folks. I realize that's what happened, but, trolling is a "hot button" with me, and I've called out a few folks on TOB for just that. I, too, hope David comes back. But, if I were to back-track, pretend that I didn't post what I did, nor essentially mean what I said, I'd be lyin'.

I am sorry, however, that David and anybody else, got upset.

I'll stay out of the main argument - but I point out that, as my wife often says, there are reasons for stereotypes. A certain percentage - and not even necessarily half - of the stereotyped group exhibits a certain behavior. But so do other groups, often.

I was just reading a SI article about Magic Johnson and his starting his theatres and how he said it would be ok to talk in his theatres because "black folks like to talk to the movie screen" and they had to carry grape soda because "black people like sweet soda". Those are Magic Johnson quotes (I worked for the operator of his theatres at one time). Both facts are stereotypically true but would anything be gained if I was to post them as facts? And what percentage of black folks actually like sweet soda or to yell at movie screens? Even though - in my experience - I have observed both.

What I'm suggesting is that the posts in question fall into a grey area - not meant to be offensive but easy to take offense with. Continuing to pound away at the point is not my thing.