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Post by bulkey on Oct 31, 2023 22:17:46 GMT -5
I know how most on this board feel about transsexual competition. Chappy and I (coincidently, we're admins, so we'll delete all arguments we don't like: JK!) feel differently.
Setting that question aside, here's a fascinating issue. This was a book review in today's NY Times by Jen Miller on the book THE RACE TO BE MYSELF: A Memoir, by Caster Semenya. I cut the last paragraph that doesn't directly address the issue.
In 2009, the 18-year-old South African track star Caster Semenya arrived in Berlin to run in the 800-meter event in that year’s World Championships. But before she was allowed to participate in the race — which she won — the International Association of Athletics Federations subjected her to multiple rounds of nonconsensual “gender confirmation tests” in response to public speculation that she was unfairly competing in the women’s category because of rumors she was male. A panel of German doctors tried to perform a transvaginal ultrasound on her, with only an English-German translator present (English is Semenya’s second language). She refused.
“The Race to Be Myself” is Semenya’s unburdening about that time, when she became a figure onto which the world projected all of its opinions about gender in sports. Raised in the South African village Ga-Masehlong at the end of apartheid, Semenya knew she didn’t fit the traditional mold of her gender, preferring pants over skirts and dresses, hunting over dolls. “But I’m still a woman,” she writes. “Growing up, my family and friends just understood I was what the Western world calls a ‘tomboy.’”
Back home, in other words, her differences resulted in little more than a shrug. As she moved through puberty, she didn’t get a period, but that wasn’t unusual among elite women runners because of their low body fat. If someone questioned her gender, Semenya “had no problem going right up to them” and offering to “drop my shorts.” Nor did she avoid showering with her teammates: “I had nothing to hide.”
After the I.A.A.F. examination, Semenya found out — along with the “entire world” — that she has a difference in sex development, making her “intersex.” Semenya was born with a vagina but no uterus; she has XY chromosomes and higher levels of testosterone than people with XX. Still, she has always thought of herself as female. “To be honest, I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now what the medical findings are,” she writes. “I was born a girl and raised as a girl. That was and is the end of the argument for me.”
Nevertheless, the I.A.A.F. threatened to bar her from competing unless she had surgery to remove the undescended gonads she hadn’t known she had. She threatened to sue and negotiated to take estrogen instead, to lower her testosterone to 10 nanomoles per liter of blood. The hormones, however, felt like “poison,” giving her panic attacks, night sweats and nausea.
But she kept excelling, finishing second in the 800-meter races at both the 2011 World Championships and the 2012 Olympics, two medals that were upgraded to gold after the first-place finisher, Russia’s Mariya Savinova, was found guilty of doping.
In 2015, the I.A.A.F. was forced to suspend its testosterone regulations after the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled in favor of Dutee Chand, the Indian runner whose supporters argued there was no proven link between testosterone levels and athletic performance. For the next few years, Semenya was able to go off estrogen, and she won gold in 800 meters at the 2016 Olympics.
But in 2018, the I.A.A.F. not only reinstated its testosterone limit on female athletes, it lowered the limit to five nanomoles per liter, based on an erroneous and later corrected study. They imposed these limits only on competitors in the 400-meter, 800-meter and 1,500-meter distances, a decision Semenya says intentionally targets African runners, who typically dominate these middle-distance events. She condemns the I.A.A.F.’s “ignorance and bigotry and racism, their belief that I and women like me were cheaters who didn’t belong.” (The book ends before a July 2023 ruling from the European Court of Human Rights that found the I.A.A.F. discriminated against Semenya by forcing her to undergo hormone treatment, but the organization has not changed its testosterone limits.)
In raw, sometimes unpolished prose, Semenya breaks her long silence, calling out her critics and asserting her right to be celebrated for her natural gifts, as other athletes are, rather than punished for them. The public “thought nothing of cheering on the seeming inevitability of wins by genetically gifted athletes like Usain Bolt, who boasted millions more fast-twitch muscle fibers and a stride that was several inches longer than his peers,” she writes. “No one suggested Michael Phelps’s dominance was unfair and he should take medication so he produces just as much lactic acid as his competitors or have surgery to fix his hypermobile joints.”
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Post by swash on Nov 1, 2023 10:53:50 GMT -5
I know how most on this board feel about transsexual competition. Chappy and I (coincidently, we're admins, so we'll delete all arguments we don't like: JK!) feel differently. Setting that question aside, here's a fascinating issue. This was a book review in today's NY Times by Jen Miller on the book THE RACE TO BE MYSELF: A Memoir, by Caster Semenya. I cut the last paragraph that don't directly address the issue. In 2009, the 18-year-old South African track star Caster Semenya arrived in Berlin to run in the 800-meter event in that year’s World Championships. But before she was allowed to participate in the race — which she won — the International Association of Athletics Federations subjected her to multiple rounds of nonconsensual “gender confirmation tests” in response to public speculation that she was unfairly competing in the women’s category because of rumors she was male. A panel of German doctors tried to perform a transvaginal ultrasound on her, with only an English-German translator present (English is Semenya’s second language). She refused. “The Race to Be Myself” is Semenya’s unburdening about that time, when she became a figure onto which the world projected all of its opinions about gender in sports. Raised in the South African village Ga-Masehlong at the end of apartheid, Semenya knew she didn’t fit the traditional mold of her gender, preferring pants over skirts and dresses, hunting over dolls. “But I’m still a woman,” she writes. “Growing up, my family and friends just understood I was what the Western world calls a ‘tomboy.’” Back home, in other words, her differences resulted in little more than a shrug. As she moved through puberty, she didn’t get a period, but that wasn’t unusual among elite women runners because of their low body fat. If someone questioned her gender, Semenya “had no problem going right up to them” and offering to “drop my shorts.” Nor did she avoid showering with her teammates: “I had nothing to hide.” After the I.A.A.F. examination, Semenya found out — along with the “entire world” — that she has a difference in sex development, making her “intersex.” Semenya was born with a vagina but no uterus; she has XY chromosomes and higher levels of testosterone than people with XX. Still, she has always thought of herself as female. “To be honest, I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now what the medical findings are,” she writes. “I was born a girl and raised as a girl. That was and is the end of the argument for me.” Nevertheless, the I.A.A.F. threatened to bar her from competing unless she had surgery to remove the undescended gonads she hadn’t known she had. She threatened to sue and negotiated to take estrogen instead, to lower her testosterone to 10 nanomoles per liter of blood. The hormones, however, felt like “poison,” giving her panic attacks, night sweats and nausea. But she kept excelling, finishing second in the 800-meter races at both the 2011 World Championships and the 2012 Olympics, two medals that were upgraded to gold after the first-place finisher, Russia’s Mariya Savinova, was found guilty of doping. In 2015, the I.A.A.F. was forced to suspend its testosterone regulations after the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled in favor of Dutee Chand, the Indian runner whose supporters argued there was no proven link between testosterone levels and athletic performance. For the next few years, Semenya was able to go off estrogen, and she won gold in 800 meters at the 2016 Olympics. But in 2018, the I.A.A.F. not only reinstated its testosterone limit on female athletes, it lowered the limit to five nanomoles per liter, based on an erroneous and later corrected study. They imposed these limits only on competitors in the 400-meter, 800-meter and 1,500-meter distances, a decision Semenya says intentionally targets African runners, who typically dominate these middle-distance events. She condemns the I.A.A.F.’s “ignorance and bigotry and racism, their belief that I and women like me were cheaters who didn’t belong.” (The book ends before a July 2023 ruling from the European Court of Human Rights that found the I.A.A.F. discriminated against Semenya by forcing her to undergo hormone treatment, but the organization has not changed its testosterone limits.) In raw, sometimes unpolished prose, Semenya breaks her long silence, calling out her critics and asserting her right to be celebrated for her natural gifts, as other athletes are, rather than punished for them. The public “thought nothing of cheering on the seeming inevitability of wins by genetically gifted athletes like Usain Bolt, who boasted millions more fast-twitch muscle fibers and a stride that was several inches longer than his peers,” she writes. “No one suggested Michael Phelps’s dominance was unfair and he should take medication so he produces just as much lactic acid as his competitors or have surgery to fix his hypermobile joints.” In my eyes, Castor is a completely different scenario from the transgender discussion. I thought there might be a chance to meet her once, but it did not come to pass. There is absolutely no question that she was treated terribly by a system that was not equipped to handle her situation. Policies were not in place. Meet to meet had different requirements ... many of them demeaning and offensive ... including visual and/or manual "inspections" ... implemented by non-medical people who did not know anything of her history. Nothing in their training for what is a fault in a long jump or reading the software to judge a photo finish prepared them for her situation. She arrived with everything pre-approved multiple times only to walk away without being allowed to compete, or won competitions only to be asked to return her awards later. Regardless of opinions about whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman, her case raised a lot of questions, some of the most important are still unanswered. - If a competitor naturally produces more or less of various hormones or proteins than the official standards, does that count as doping? - If another potential competitor naturally produces inferior quantities, should they be allowed to artificially adjust those levels to meet the standards (ie legal doping)? - Does qualification center around traits considered as gender defining, and if so, which ones and how should that be confirmed? - Or is qualification centered only on a chemist's assessment of bodily fluids, and if so ... when? - How do we deal with people whose natural biology leaves unanswered questions? |
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Post by bulkey on Nov 1, 2023 10:57:47 GMT -5
In my eyes, Castor is a completely different scenario from the transgender discussion. I thought there might be a chance to meet her once, but it did not come to pass. There is absolutely no question that she was treated terribly by a system that was not equipped to handle her situation. Policies were not in place. Meet to meet had different requirements ... many of them demeaning and offensive ... including visual and/or manual "inspections" ... implemented by non-medical people who did not know anything of her history. Nothing in their training for what is a fault in a long jump or reading the software to judge a photo finish prepared them for her situation. She arrived with everything pre-approved multiple times only to walk away without being allowed to compete, or won competitions only to be asked to return her awards later. Regardless of opinions about whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman, her case raised a lot of questions, some of the most important are still unanswered. - If a competitor naturally produces more or less of various hormones or proteins than the official standards, does that count as doping? - If another potential competitor naturally produces inferior quantities, should they be allowed to artificially adjust those levels to meet the standards (ie legal doping)? - Does qualification center around traits considered as gender defining, and if so, which ones and how should that be confirmed? - Or is qualification centered only on a chemist's assessment of bodily fluids, and if so ... when? - How do we deal with people whose natural biology leaves unanswered questions? Great points. I agree with most of this. In some ways, the last paragraph of the article really hits an important point. Effectively, all sports are "unfair" because every athlete brings innate advantages or disadvantages. If a basketball team's biggest player is 6'4" and the other team has a 6'7" center, is that "fair"? That's biology, too. Some (including you, swash) claim that the line between intersex and transsex is that one is what you're born with and the other is what you decide to become. But others (including me) argue that transsexual athletes aren't "born" with their original biological sex; they're "born" knowing that that biology is "wrong" for who they are. |
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Post by UConnChapette on Nov 1, 2023 11:02:01 GMT -5
One quibble to what you said, Swash. "Does qualification center around traits considered as gender defining, and if so, which ones and how should that be confirmed?"
Gender is often times misused, and the difference between "sex" and "gender" is often misunderstood. Children are assigned to a gender at birth, based on their sex organs present at birth.
There are different terms, even. Transsexual and transgender.
But gender is broader. It is how one identifies themselves regardless of the sex organs they possess. For many, especially those who do not have a transgender person in their life, this concept is very difficult to understand.
It is a very complex issue either way.
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Post by swash on Nov 1, 2023 12:02:17 GMT -5
In my eyes, Castor is a completely different scenario from the transgender discussion. I thought there might be a chance to meet her once, but it did not come to pass. There is absolutely no question that she was treated terribly by a system that was not equipped to handle her situation. Policies were not in place. Meet to meet had different requirements ... many of them demeaning and offensive ... including visual and/or manual "inspections" ... implemented by non-medical people who did not know anything of her history. Nothing in their training for what is a fault in a long jump or reading the software to judge a photo finish prepared them for her situation. She arrived with everything pre-approved multiple times only to walk away without being allowed to compete, or won competitions only to be asked to return her awards later. Regardless of opinions about whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman, her case raised a lot of questions, some of the most important are still unanswered. - If a competitor naturally produces more or less of various hormones or proteins than the official standards, does that count as doping? - If another potential competitor naturally produces inferior quantities, should they be allowed to artificially adjust those levels to meet the standards (ie legal doping)? - Does qualification center around traits considered as gender defining, and if so, which ones and how should that be confirmed? - Or is qualification centered only on a chemist's assessment of bodily fluids, and if so ... when? - How do we deal with people whose natural biology leaves unanswered questions? Great points. I agree with most of this. In some ways, the last paragraph of the article really hits an important point. Effectively, all sports are "unfair" because every athlete brings innate advantages or disadvantages. If a basketball team's biggest player is 6'4" and the other team has a 6'7" center, is that "fair"? That's biology, too. Some (including you, swash) claim that the line between intersex and transsex is that one is what you're born with and the other is what you decide to become. But others (including me) argue that transsexual athletes aren't "born" with their original biological sex; they're "born" knowing that that biology is "wrong" for who they are. I suspect we are not as far different as you surmise. I know we share the tenet that respect and dignity are due to all people, even those whom we may not readily understand. I readily accept that some people are born with the "wrong" body. [As a side note: I suspect someday science may determine a biological marker that heightens the odds for such a path in life. I pray this knowledge will be used only for good, but our history suggests that may take years longer than the discovery. There are probably indications as well, given that nature vs nurture more and more yields the answer, "Both."] Where we may differ is in the "then what" stage. Unfortunately, the "wrong" body rarely gets the message and continues to develop as it was born, and this has a direct impact on their participation in competitive events. Transgender people born female, typically either play as female or select other recreational activities, and no debates arise. It is only those who are born male and choose to compete as females that raise a concern. While I agree that it is unfair to hinder those desires, I feel the greater injustice would be to spoil fair competition for all girls and women. We have fought long and hard. We are finally achieving respect for women in competition. Someday, perhaps there will be enough transgender females to compete in a separate gender category. |
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Post by swash on Nov 1, 2023 12:05:23 GMT -5
One quibble to what you said, Swash. "Does qualification center around traits considered as gender defining, and if so, which ones and how should that be confirmed?" Gender is often times misused, and the difference between "sex" and "gender" is often misunderstood. Children are assigned to a gender at birth, based on their sex organs present at birth. There are different terms, even. Transsexual and transgender. But gender is broader. It is how one identifies themselves regardless of the sex organs they possess. For many, especially those who do not have a transgender person in their life, this concept is very difficult to understand. It is a very complex issue either way. No debate with any of this. those two lines started as one ... traits or chemistry ... but each needed expounding and the embedded parentheticals overwhelmed the message, so I split them into separate questions |
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Post by vtcwbuff on Nov 1, 2023 14:40:32 GMT -5
"In my eyes, Castor is a completely different scenario from the transgender discussion."
In this case I agree that it is complicated. This individual appears to be neither biological female or biological male. However, intersex individuals are statistical outliers. Their ability to compete with the gender of their choice needs to be addressed.
What does not apply here is the uncomplicated issue of biological males competing unfairly against biological females. The argument that all sports are intrinsically unfair because of difference in individual physique or athletic ability is silly.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Nov 6, 2023 11:15:03 GMT -5
Maybe not so complicated?
“World Athletics has over a decade of research, directly from DSD athletes in our own sport, that show high testosterone levels do provide an unfair advantage in the female category,” World Athletics said.
“The research also shows that the frequency of DSD individuals in the elite athlete population is around 140 times higher than you will find in the general female population. This is why our guidelines on testosterone thresholds are necessary, reasonable, and proportionate to protect the integrity of the female category and have been upheld by two Courts.
“If we don’t protect the female category, then women and young girls will not choose sport.”
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Post by huskyharper on Nov 6, 2023 12:12:01 GMT -5
Maybe not so complicated?
“World Athletics has over a decade of research, directly from DSD athletes in our own sport, that show high testosterone levels do provide an unfair advantage in the female category,” World Athletics said.
“The research also shows that the frequency of DSD individuals in the elite athlete population is around 140 times higher than you will find in the general female population. This is why our guidelines on testosterone thresholds are necessary, reasonable, and proportionate to protect the integrity of the female category and have been upheld by two Courts.
“If we don’t protect the female category, then women and young girls will not choose sport.”
I gotta ask: "what's DSD athletes/individuals"?
I've been following this discussion closely. I have concerns for all involved, including fairness in competitive sports.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Nov 6, 2023 13:50:57 GMT -5
Differences in Sexual Developement. Apparently some biological women produce more testosterone naturally than others. That is significantly higher than the general female population. In the case of a biological intersex individual like Semenya she identifies as a female, however her gonads are male and produce high levels of testosterone. She does not have ovaries which produce female hormones.
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Nov 7, 2023 0:17:48 GMT -5
Just to avoid another thread, I'll post her that there was an article about males playing on girl's field hockey teams. Not transgender or anything, just guys who want to play field hockey and don't have any other option if they want to play, I think the article (which was about Massachusetts) indicated 35 or so guys playing throughout the state. In the incident reported, the guy hit a hard shot that went high and was so hard it knocked out teeth and broke the jaw etc. of the girl he accidentally hit.
The suggestion was male leagues and teams, since there are probably more guys that want to play that won't because they don't want to be on a female team. This I doubt (that there is enough). But in any case, is letting the guys play with girls a solution?
Of course the converse that has been noted previously is girls that wrestle on boy's teams, where there are no girl's teams. Because of weight classes and the skills involved, guys do not necessarily have an inherent advantage, so this doesn't bother me, but it most certainly gets some folks knickers in a twist, including guys refusing to wrestle girls.
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