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Post by davidinnaples on Aug 31, 2021 12:02:54 GMT -5
The question was asked over on TOB. The best answer was from meyers7. I have totally stolen his answer and posted it here, with added info. "There were 3 positions in olden days. Guards, Forwards, Center... But now they have been broken down even further..." 1. Guards are now three types: Point Guard - 1 (Nika) Shooting Guard - 2 (Christyn, Azzi) Combo Guard - 1/2 (Paige) 2. Forwards are now three types: Wing/small forward - 3 (Evina, CD4, Saylor) Forward/power forward - 4 (Aaliyah, Aubrey) Stretch forward- 4 (Dorka, Amari) 3. Center/Post - 5 (Olivia) One could argue where specific players fall all day. Is Azzi a combo? Is Olivia a true post? A case could be made either way. It is now also possible to have 2 shooting guards in at the same time. Or, 2 power forwards... The old days of players filling only a certain role are gone. Positionless basketball may be coming... or it may be here...  Discuss... |
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Post by semper on Aug 31, 2021 12:27:58 GMT -5
We haven't had a true back to the basket post in a very long time. Do they still exist? Remember Tina...sigh.
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 12:35:57 GMT -5
That's a great, great post, David/meyers7! Thanks so much. Of course, ND plays Princeton and UConn plays Motion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_offenseen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_offenseThey're quite similar. One thing about motion is that it can be 5 out or 4 out-1 www.basketballforcoaches.com/5-out-motion-offense/www.basketballforcoaches.com/4-out-1-in-offense/It's my sense that UConn uses both types, depending often on the level of development of the post player. When Liv was bombing 3s earlier in the year, they were a purer 5-out; when she became an extremely effective high post player, it seemed more the 4 out-1. On top of motion is an overlay of read-and-react. This gets deep into the weeds, like here, where the slightly different approaches bleed into one another: www.poundingtherock.com/2016/4/3/11355120/spurs-playbook-motion-offense-vs-read-and-reactNote that this is about the Spurs. Geno and Popovich are friends and share lots of basketball ideas. UConn is limited to a certain number of practices and is dealing with younger student/athletics with limited attention spans. So, Geno is limited in the complexity he can build in. (UConn WCBB and Villanova MCBB probably have the most complex offenses in college basketball). My point is that, while meyers7 has identified the general positions, the responsibilities within those positions can change pretty significantly depending on offense. South Carolina, for example, now has two highly talented "bigs." Is Cardozo the post and Boston the ??. South Carolina is going to play a very different offense than UConn, and the position nomenclature may be different or may be the same but mean something different. |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 12:43:21 GMT -5
Note what Geno says in the first 10 seconds: here's our TWO wings! He's thinking read-and-react and the positions mean different things to him here.
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 12:51:00 GMT -5
We haven't had a true back to the basket post in a very long time. Do they still exist? Remember Tina...sigh.  |
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Post by davidinnaples on Aug 31, 2021 12:59:05 GMT -5
Note what Geno says in the first 10 seconds: here's our TWO wings! He's thinking read-and-react and the positions mean different things to him here. Keep in mind there is "wing" the position and "wing" the location... when Geno says "give me two wings" on the fast break, he may mean two players on the wing (location), ie: on the outside of the player with the ball... |
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Post by davidinnaples on Aug 31, 2021 13:01:15 GMT -5
That's a great, great post, David/meyers7! Thanks so much. Of course, ND plays Princeton and UConn plays Motion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_offenseen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_offenseThey're quite similar. One thing about motion is that it can be 5 out or 4 out-1 www.basketballforcoaches.com/5-out-motion-offense/www.basketballforcoaches.com/4-out-1-in-offense/It's my sense that UConn uses both types, depending often on the level of development of the post player. When Liv was bombing 3s earlier in the year, they were a purer 5-out; when she became an extremely effective high post player, it seemed more the 4 out-1. On top of motion is an overlay of read-and-react. This gets deep into the weeds, like here, where the slightly different approaches bleed into one another: www.poundingtherock.com/2016/4/3/11355120/spurs-playbook-motion-offense-vs-read-and-reactNote that this is about the Spurs. Geno and Popovich are friends and share lots of basketball ideas. UConn is limited to a certain number of practices and is dealing with younger student/athletics with limited attention spans. So, Geno is limited in the complexity he can build in. (UConn WCBB and Villanova MCBB probably have the most complex offenses in college basketball). My point is that, while meyers7 has identified the general positions, the responsibilities within those positions can change pretty significantly depending on offense. South Carolina, for example, now has two highly talented "bigs." Is Cardozo the post and Boston the ??. South Carolina is going to play a very different offense than UConn, and the position nomenclature may be different or may be the same but mean something different. All this is why is takes time for players to "learn the offense" at UConn.... for some, it is the first time offense has been broken down into "read and then move accordingly".... instead of just go to spot A and wait for the ball... |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 13:08:43 GMT -5
Note what Geno says in the first 10 seconds: here's our TWO wings! He's thinking read-and-react and the positions mean different things to him here. Keep in mind there is "wing" the position and "wing" the location... when Geno says "give me two wings" on the fast break, he may mean two players on the wing (location), ie: on the outside of the player with the ball... I'm sure you're right, David. The player becomes the position here. And because there are two similar positions on this break/movement, the players both have the same designation. In motion, the positions tend to collapse the distinctions as well. I'm way over my paygrade here, but I'm wondering whether the way UConn is constructed is not only because of the kind of overall offense it wants to present (it wants big players working the baseline and [usually smaller] players stretching the defense by shooting 3s). But also because it needs particular body types to match up on defense against the other team's body types. So, the offense is somewhat dictated by the defense as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2021 13:08:49 GMT -5
Note what Geno says in the first 10 seconds: here's our TWO wings! He's thinking read-and-react and the positions mean different things to him here. Keep in mind there is "wing" the position and "wing" the location... when Geno says "give me two wings" on the fast break, he may mean two players on the wing (location), ie: on the outside of the player with the ball... So you don't think he was hungry and wanted some Buffalo Wings?? |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 13:10:22 GMT -5
Keep in mind there is "wing" the position and "wing" the location... when Geno says "give me two wings" on the fast break, he may mean two players on the wing (location), ie: on the outside of the player with the ball... So you don't think he was hungry and wanted some Buffalo Wings?? Did the scoreboard say 83? |
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Post by davidinnaples on Aug 31, 2021 13:12:38 GMT -5
My point is that, while meyers7 has identified the general positions, the responsibilities within those positions can change pretty significantly depending on offense. South Carolina, for example, now has two highly talented "bigs." Is Cardozo the post and Boston the ??. South Carolina is going to play a very different offense than UConn, and the position nomenclature may be different or may be the same but mean something different. So very true...! Boston, for South Carolina, had 50 assists all last season... she took 338 shots and had only 50 assists... as a team, SC took 2,014 shots and had 400 assists... In fewer games, UConn had 613 assists, took fewer shots at 1,884 and yet scored MORE points (2,456 vs 2,338). There is nothing "read and react" about SC's offense... their "bigs" score and rebound, their guards shoot and occasionally pass... Against UConn last season, SC had 7 assists and 68 shots... UConn has 15 assists and 73 shots... Just looked up Cardoso's assists... 16 in 563 minutes...with 229 shots...  |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 13:17:15 GMT -5
My point is that, while meyers7 has identified the general positions, the responsibilities within those positions can change pretty significantly depending on offense. South Carolina, for example, now has two highly talented "bigs." Is Cardozo the post and Boston the ??. South Carolina is going to play a very different offense than UConn, and the position nomenclature may be different or may be the same but mean something different. So very true...! Boston, for South Carolina, had 50 assists all last season... she took 338 shots and had only 50 assists... as a team, SC took 2,014 shots and had 400 assists... In fewer games, UConn had 613 assists, took fewer shots at 1,884 and yet scored MORE points (2,456 vs 2,338). There is nothing "read and react" about SC's offense... their "bigs" score and rebound, their guards shoot and occasionally pass... Against UConn last season, SC had 7 assists and 68 shots... UConn has 15 assists and 73 shots... Such great stuff! Not sure how this translates into the offense. Does it mean far more put-backs (unassisted scores)? Or is it more one-on-one ball? Certainly, a lot less ball movement and far less complex offense. Probably a lot more set plays. They're easy to learn by rote, but get you into trouble in critical one-possession games, where a quick and gambling defense (like UConn's) can blow up the play and require you to extemporize. |
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Post by semper on Aug 31, 2021 13:27:05 GMT -5
Love this breakdown...should he be giving away the secrets? Wow!
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Post by bulkey on Aug 31, 2021 13:38:46 GMT -5
Love this breakdown...should he be giving away the secrets? Wow! He has a number of open practices/year for visiting coaches. He hides nothing, and couldn't anyway: since Clair Bee, we've known everything there is to know about basketball. It's all about execution. |
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Aug 31, 2021 23:14:58 GMT -5
Love this breakdown...should he be giving away the secrets? Wow! He has a number of open practices/year for visiting coaches. He hides nothing, and couldn't anyway: since Clair Bee, we've known everything there is to know about basketball. It's all about execution. As you say, there are no secrets. Coaches break down the offensive and defensive plays of the opposition very well, now some have "specialists" to do this sort of thing. And numerous plays have always been circulating through the WBCA and probably other organizations as well. I enjoy insight, but am not so well versed that I recognize most offenses or defenses, thankfully the commentators keep me informed typically. I do recognize the 55 when Vivian uses it (and other presses that I have no idea what they are, but they are not that). I have always considered UConn offense to be one of the more attractive to watch with so much motion and - going back to Lobo days - I have always said that it looks like the ball is constantly getting closer to the basket. What folks don't always "get" is sometimes a small adjustment makes a big difference. Because she was asked one time Viv explained what happened in a game against Notre Dame in the Ruth Riley era, where we were doing well and Tasha Pointer was having a great game and all of a sudden, after half, not so much. CVS said that the difference was simply that the Notre Dame defense changed their positions slightly (largely, moving Ruth further out from under the basket) and forced Tasha into a position where she could not drive to the basket or shoot effectively. And given how everyone else was playing - it was the difference in the game. |
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