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Post by davidinnaples on Jul 30, 2021 11:50:31 GMT -5
The USA women's soccer team has had 8 goals disallowed because of players being "offsides" including several today. For those who might not understand the soccer offsides rule, here is an easy explanation.
1. A player must have 2 opponents or 1 ball in between them and the goal, when the ball is passed to them. (1 ball = 2 people)
2. If a player is in an offside position, but not involved in the play, there is NO offsides.
3. Since the goalie is almost always between a player and the goal, only 1 other defender needs to be in between.
4. You are offsides (or not) the instant the ball is passed, not when it arrives or is in the air.
5. If a player is even with the defender, they are not offsides. Must be ahead of them, closer to the goal.
6. The two sideline refs call offsides by raising their flag. There is also video replay now...
7. The defensive players are always trying to get offensive players offsides by "stepping up" or moving away from the goal when the opponent is not paying attention.
The purpose of the rule is to keep forwards from hanging around the opponent's goal for cheap goals. In hockey, the offside line is painted on the ice. In soccer, the line is wherever the 2nd defender is standing. Forwards who are called for offsides are usually too eager to make their run, not paying attention or victims of a late pass.
It has not cost the US a game, yet...
Go U.S.A...!!
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Post by bulkey on Jul 30, 2021 12:23:31 GMT -5
Thanks, David. I've asked my kids a million times and never got such a good explanation.
But doofus that I am, I'm still not clear on #1. Doesn't a player always have a ball between him and the goal? I mean, he has to have the ball in front of him to kick it and score.
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Post by davidinnaples on Jul 30, 2021 12:31:19 GMT -5
Thanks, David. I've asked my kids a million times and never got such a good explanation. But doofus that I am, I'm still not clear on #1. Doesn't a player always have a ball between him and the goal? I mean, he has to have the ball in front of him to kick it and score. I edited #1 to try to make it clearer. A player is never offsides if he/she has the ball. (1 ball = 2 people) The two people rule is when you don't have the ball and are trying to get the ball passed to you. The ball can be 30 yards behind you or even with you on the outside. When the ball is struck (passed) to you, the goalie and 1 other player must be between you and the goal. But, only the instant the ball is kicked, not in the air or when it arrives. Hopefully, that helps... (it is a dumb rule, hockey does it better) Many goals are scored when a player crosses the ball into the big penalty box and a team mate heads or kicks the ball into the goal. As long as the goalie and 1 other defender are closer to the goal when the ball is struck (passed), NO offsides. Also, NO offsides on corner kicks and throw ins when the pass is first kicked or thrown... |
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Post by swash on Jul 30, 2021 15:04:51 GMT -5
Thanks, David. I've asked my kids a million times and never got such a good explanation. But doofus that I am, I'm still not clear on #1. Doesn't a player always have a ball between him and the goal? I mean, he has to have the ball in front of him to kick it and score. Worry not. Literally half of the official soccer rulebook describes offside. A player is never offside if she/he/they have possession of the ball. That player can take the ball anywhere, anytime regardless of the positioning of any other player on the field. Offside occurs only if/when the ball is played to that player from a teammate. There is no offside if the defender hands it to you, either. Within that context, David's list is excellent. A ball passed backward if both offensive players are behind the defense is fine because at the pass, the ball is ahead of the receiving player. There are a million complexities after that, but only one worth describing. A player is considered offside if and only if they are a participant in the play. Alex Morgan's goal that was called off earlier followed this reasoning: 1. Was Morgan offside at the time the ball was passed? Clearly, yes. 2. Did Alex play the ball? No. It passed her and she kept running and caught up after it had been "played" by the defense. See #3 3. Did the defense touch the ball before the goal? Yes. This was the reason for the time taken to consider. 4. Was Alex affecting the positioning of the defense by her "challenging for the ball"? Yes. Because if she hadn't been there, likely either the keeper would have been back further or the defender would have backed off, making it easy for the goalie to catch the ball. Therefore, even though Alex didn't touch the ball, she was "in the play" making her offside and the fact that she eventually collected the ball and shot it into the net was moot because the offside had already occurred. I think all of the calls reviewed in this game were correct, although some were very close. Better still, it was also called correctly in live action. It was quite annoying that they didn't have good replays from multiple angles or show why the call was made during the game. Instead we were treated to the scintillating moments of players taking a water break and the referee holding a hand over one ear. Oy! |
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Post by bulkey on Jul 30, 2021 15:35:33 GMT -5
Thanks, David. I've asked my kids a million times and never got such a good explanation. But doofus that I am, I'm still not clear on #1. Doesn't a player always have a ball between him and the goal? I mean, he has to have the ball in front of him to kick it and score. Worry not. Literally half of the official soccer rulebook describes offside. A player is never offside if she/he/they have possession of the ball. That player can take the ball anywhere, anytime regardless of the positioning of any other player on the field. Offside occurs only if/when the ball is played to that player from a teammate. There is no offside if the defender hands it to you, either. Within that context, David's list is excellent. A ball passed backward if both offensive players are behind the defense is fine because at the pass, the ball is ahead of the receiving player. There are a million complexities after that, but only one worth describing. A player is considered offside if and only if they are a participant in the play. Alex Morgan's goal that was called off earlier followed this reasoning: 1. Was Morgan offside at the time the ball was passed? Clearly, yes. 2. Did Alex play the ball? No. It passed her and she kept running and caught up after it had been "played" by the defense. See #3 3. Did the defense touch the ball before the goal? Yes. This was the reason for the time taken to consider. 4. Was Alex affecting the positioning of the defense by her "challenging for the ball"? Yes. Because if she hadn't been there, likely either the keeper would have been back further or the defender would have backed off, making it easy for the goalie to catch the ball. Therefore, even though Alex didn't touch the ball, she was "in the play" making her offside and the fact that she eventually collected the ball and shot it into the net was moot because the offside had already occurred. I think all of the calls reviewed in this game were correct, although some were very close. Better still, it was also called correctly in live action. It was quite annoying that they didn't have good replays from multiple angles or show why the call was made during the game. Instead we were treated to the scintillating moments of players taking a water break and the referee holding a hand over one ear. Oy! Simply astonishing. I'm in awe of you and David. Mammas, don't let your babies grow up to be soccer referees.... |
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Post by meyers7 on Aug 3, 2021 9:23:39 GMT -5
Thanks, David. I've asked my kids a million times and never got such a good explanation. But doofus that I am, I'm still not clear on #1. Doesn't a player always have a ball between him and the goal? I mean, he has to have the ball in front of him to kick it and score. I edited #1 to try to make it clearer. A player is never offsides if he/she has the ball. (1 ball = 2 people) The two people rule is when you don't have the ball and are trying to get the ball passed to you. The ball can be 30 yards behind you or even with you on the outside. When the ball is struck (passed) to you, the goalie and 1 other player must be between you and the goal. But, only the instant the ball is kicked, not in the air or when it arrives. Hopefully, that helps... (it is a dumb rule, hockey does it better) Many goals are scored when a player crosses the ball into the big penalty box and a team mate heads or kicks the ball into the goal. As long as the goalie and 1 other defender are closer to the goal when the ball is struck (passed), NO offsides. Also, NO offsides on corner kicks and throw ins when the pass is first kicked or thrown... Just a couple small corrections.
Because people always forget about this, it doesn't necessarily have to be the GK and 1 defender. Just 2nd to last defender. It just happens, MOST of the time the GK is the "last defender", but not always. It could be 2 defenders with the GK further up the field (happens sometimes on Corner Kicks when there are defenders on the posts).
As for the ball stuff, just try to think of it as a moving "Blue Hockey Line". It is either the half-way line, 2nd to last defender, or the ball, whichever is closest to the goal.
Now that's just the decision if a player is in an offside position. And there is nothing wrong with being in an offside position.
However, the 2nd part of it is being involved in play. If that happens, then it's an offside infraction. Flag goes up, CR's whistles and arm goes up (for an Indirect Free Kick). Unless of course they wait for VAR.
David and swash covered most of that part. But just to put it down. There are 3 ways to be "involved in play".
1. Play the ball 2. Interfering with Opponent (e.g. challenging for the ball, obstructing the GK's line of vision)
3. Gaining an advantage (this has to do with being in an offside position and getting the ball from a "deflection" off a defender, GK or the goalposts/crossbar, or referee)
Although pretty convoluted, it's probably the most important rule to make soccer more enjoyable, more offensive, the beautiful game. Without it you'd get a bunch of attackers in each penalty box (Penalty Area) with a bunch of defenders. And players just pumping the ball from box to box, with little or no midfield play. Wouldn't need people like Messi or speedsters, just big strong guys who could out-leap others. It would look a lot more like Handball or Waterpolo.
The static Blue Line in Hockey I think works because of the small (comparatively) playing area compared to soccer. Wouldn't work as well on the big soccer fields.
And lastly, just to be super nit-picky, in "Football" it's "offside" vs "offsides".  |
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Post by swash on Aug 3, 2021 9:59:01 GMT -5
I edited #1 to try to make it clearer. A player is never offsides if he/she has the ball. (1 ball = 2 people) The two people rule is when you don't have the ball and are trying to get the ball passed to you. The ball can be 30 yards behind you or even with you on the outside. When the ball is struck (passed) to you, the goalie and 1 other player must be between you and the goal. But, only the instant the ball is kicked, not in the air or when it arrives. Hopefully, that helps... (it is a dumb rule, hockey does it better) Many goals are scored when a player crosses the ball into the big penalty box and a team mate heads or kicks the ball into the goal. As long as the goalie and 1 other defender are closer to the goal when the ball is struck (passed), NO offsides. Also, NO offsides on corner kicks and throw ins when the pass is first kicked or thrown... Just a couple small corrections.
Because people always forget about this, it doesn't necessarily have to be the GK and 1 defender. Just 2nd to last defender. It just happens, MOST of the time the GK is the "last defender", but not always. It could be 2 defenders with the GK further up the field (happens sometimes on Corner Kicks when there are defenders on the posts).
As for the ball stuff, just try to think of it as a moving "Blue Hockey Line". It is either the half-way line, 2nd to last defender, or the ball, whichever is closest to the goal.
Now that's just the decision if a player is in an offside position. And there is nothing wrong with being in an offside position.
However, the 2nd part of it is being involved in play. If that happens, then it's an offside infraction. Flag goes up, CR's whistles and arm goes up (for an Indirect Free Kick). Unless of course they wait for VAR.
David and swash covered most of that part. But just to put it down. There are 3 ways to be "involved in play".
1. Play the ball 2. Interfering with Opponent (e.g. challenging for the ball, obstructing the GK's line of vision)
3. Gaining an advantage (this has to do with being in an offside position and getting the ball from a "deflection" off a defender, GK or the goalposts/crossbar, or referee)
Although pretty convoluted, it's probably the most important rule to make soccer more enjoyable, more offensive, the beautiful game. Without it you'd get a bunch of attackers in each penalty box (Penalty Area) with a bunch of defenders. And players just pumping the ball from box to box, with little or no midfield play. Wouldn't need people like Messi or speedsters, just big strong guys who could out-leap others. It would look a lot more like Handball or Waterpolo.
The static Blue Line in Hockey I think works because of the small (comparatively) playing area compared to soccer. Wouldn't work as well on the big soccer fields.
And lastly, just to be super nit-picky, in "Football" it's "offside" vs "offsides". Quality post, Meyers. Two tweaks/additions: 1. On a corner kick the ball is officially on the end line at the kick, so it makes no difference where the defenders are ... until the ball is touched by an offensive player ... say in a short corner pass to a player nearby 2. You are correct about the size of the arena, but also the speed with which the puck moves across the ice means that you need an offsides rule with a static line. Also, hockey has the icing rule (and used to have the two-line-pass rule), and those work together to accomplish the same end. |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 3, 2021 11:04:26 GMT -5
I've got a question for you folks: do you really think this discussion of offside/offsides is going to inspire the rest of us doofuses to be more interested in watching this cockamamie sport? I don't think I have enough time to get another PhD.  |
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Post by chicagogg on Aug 3, 2021 11:16:15 GMT -5
I, for one, am impressed as hell that we have folks who not only totally understand this, but can explain it so well to an soccer ignoramus like myself. Much appreciated!
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Post by davidinnaples on Aug 3, 2021 12:04:05 GMT -5
I, for one, am impressed as hell that we have folks who not only totally understand this, but can explain it so well to an soccer ignoramus like myself. Much appreciated! Meyers7 is so smart about this stuff because he is a soccer ref..!! I like him anyway...!  |
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Post by swash on Aug 3, 2021 13:34:11 GMT -5
I've got a question for you folks: do you really think this discussion of offside/offsides is going to inspire the rest of us doofuses to be more interested in watching this cockamamie sport? I don't think I have enough time to get another PhD. Four thoughts ... Added one more: 1. This from an admitted softball aficionado? More rules and wacky stuff in that game than soccer/futbal. Don't even THINK about all of the non-rule dicta in MLB. 2. You take the one confusing law and proclaim the entire sport over the head of an established communicator and educator of post-grads? That's like test-driving a Ferrari and ruling it out because your passenger passed gas. 3. Don't use your hands. Don't hurt anyone. Try to get this ball into that goal while stopping your opponent from scoring more in your goal. That's a pretty simple baseline to remember. 4. Basketball flirted with an offside rule for a time. My mom wasn't allowed to cross into the forecourt playing in college. Over time, with only five people in the game, it was just too costly to play with 20% fewer defenders to make the basket-hanger a viable position. In Soccer that would be only a 9% deficit, so the rule remains. 5. While it is nuanced, the current definition of offside produces a lively and interesting ... even beautiful ... game to play and to watch. |
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Post by bulkey on Aug 3, 2021 14:41:16 GMT -5
I've got a question for you folks: do you really think this discussion of offside/offsides is going to inspire the rest of us doofuses to be more interested in watching this cockamamie sport? I don't think I have enough time to get another PhD. Four thoughts ... Added one more: 1. This from an admitted softball aficionado? More rules and wacky stuff in that game than soccer/futbal. Don't even THINK about all of the non-rule dicta in MLB. 2. You take the one confusing law and proclaim the entire sport over the head of an established communicator and educator of post-grads? That's like test-driving a Ferrari and ruling it out because your passenger passed gas. 3. Don't use your hands. Don't hurt anyone. Try to get this ball into that goal while stopping your opponent from scoring more in your goal. That's a pretty simple baseline to remember. 4. Basketball flirted with an offside rule for a time. My mom wasn't allowed to cross into the forecourt playing in college. Over time, with only five people in the game, it was just too costly to play with 20% fewer defenders to make the basket-hanger a viable position. In Soccer that would be only a 9% deficit, so the rule remains. 5. While it is nuanced, the current definition of offside produces a lively and interesting ... even beautiful ... game to play and to watch. I completely agree with most of what you write. But I've got a kid (out of our 3) and a nephew who are completely wild about soccer and have tried and tried to explain offside(s) to me, and I'm still the same idiot about it. Ditto icing. So, I sort of watch with them, nodding appreciatively. I do admit to #5. It's extraordinarily beautiful to watch, though I still don't understand it. Like cricket, I attribute it to crazy Europeans who tried to civilize the rest of us and (fortunately) failed. |
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Post by semper on Aug 4, 2021 8:14:08 GMT -5
I deeply appreciate this. Now back to baseball. |
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