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Post by vtcwbuff on Jan 21, 2021 18:08:50 GMT -5
"President Biden, in an executive order aimed at "preventing and combating discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation," is calling on schools across the country to allow transgender athletes to participate in the sport of their gender identity."
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Post by bulkey on Jan 21, 2021 18:41:57 GMT -5
A little inflammatory title, right, vtcwbuff?
I mean, Biden just restored what Obama had ordered, and there was no "end of competitive sports" then, right?
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Post by huskyharper on Jan 21, 2021 18:58:34 GMT -5
could be, vtcwbuff. certainly is biologically unfair. and to state that is politically incorrect, even though scientifically true.
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Jan 22, 2021 0:41:41 GMT -5
could be, vtcwbuff. certainly is biologically unfair. and to state that is politically incorrect, even though scientifically true. I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details.
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Post by bulkey on Jan 22, 2021 11:35:29 GMT -5
could be, vtcwbuff. certainly is biologically unfair. and to state that is politically incorrect, even though scientifically true. I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details. Great post! Sometimes issues aren't simple, and therefore sometimes we need to muddle through a bit until things evolve and we can get a better sense of how to proceed. No one wants to discriminate; OTOH no one wants to give someone an unfair advantage. Rather than making rules or harsh statements, let's watch and learn. Look at professional tennis. There have only been a couple of trans players in the women's game, and they haven't at all dominated. So, why hurt people's feelings when there really hasn't been a problem here.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Jan 22, 2021 12:13:09 GMT -5
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Post by swash on Jan 22, 2021 14:05:02 GMT -5
could be, vtcwbuff. certainly is biologically unfair. and to state that is politically incorrect, even though scientifically true. I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details. The difficult problem is only going to increase in frequency and volume. Individual sports are one thing and teams are another. Mixed doubles in tennis. I was told that Pairs in ice skating specifies a male and a female. Interesting that ice dancing does not have a gender rule, but tradition has ... Enforced ... An old fashioned binary pairing, even with many openly LBGTQ individuals participating. Mixed relays in track and swimming. Ignoring the potential for fraud, what will happen if someone like Shaq enters the W? He overpowered the NBA. More than half a foot taller than BG, and outweighing big Syl by nearly a hundred pounds, There would be no way to stop a dunk on every possession. Do all post players essentially become moot? After the initial period of astonishment, who would watch those games? We all lament the patronizing and minimizing of the women's game. Ignoring the women's sports altogether on many outlets. Derision to follow if anyone calls sports radio with a WNT or WNBA take. WCBB ... Is Even worse. How much less coverage ... And more ignorant gloating would there be if the above were to happen? We learn early... Most of us... That our individual desires are outweighed by those of the larger community. This means that we cannot slight all women to satisfy a few, the same way we cannot allow the rich and powerful to be exempt from the law. Yes. There are cases where that still happens, but we are called to stand against those instances. Yes. That is absolutely unfair to some individuals, and we can and should empathize and accommodate in as many ways as we can to help them
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Post by bulkey on Jan 25, 2021 12:48:24 GMT -5
I think we all agree that this is an extremely difficult situation.
But has always been "unfair" advantages in sports. It starts with money and access.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Feb 1, 2021 18:57:00 GMT -5
A little inflammatory title, right, vtcwbuff? I mean, Biden just restored what Obama had ordered, and there was no "end of competitive sports" then, right? Well some young women tracks starts in CT got flamed by guys. Remember? There is no sport that transgender males can't take over in the blink of an eye.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Feb 2, 2021 14:37:58 GMT -5
Of course there is a simple solution to a non complicated matter. Whenever a biological male is accepted as a competitor in a female sport all of the females should withdraw.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Feb 4, 2021 12:30:08 GMT -5
could be, vtcwbuff. certainly is biologically unfair. and to state that is politically incorrect, even though scientifically true. I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details. Why is it discriminatory to have a transgendered or nonbinary athlete compete with those who have the same genetic make up? About the only 2 sports where men do not have a big advantage are ping pong and tiddley winks.
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Feb 4, 2021 19:24:40 GMT -5
I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details. Why is it discriminatory to have a transgendered or nonbinary athlete compete with those who have the same genetic make up? About the only 2 sports where men do not have a big advantage are ping pong and tiddley winks. I don't know that it is or isn't discriminatory - the comment was general - no one should suffer discrimination. The solution isn't obvious, as there is a very small sample size and wildly differing opinions, even apparently among folks that know far more than I do. There was a long opinion piece in my daily paper's guest opinion pages today suggesting we have to let trans athletes compete in their chosen gender. The writer - a medical professional in the field - went on and on about the suicides and suffering of transgendered folks who are discriminated against. The writer chose not to mention the affect of this on other non-transgendered athletes - a glaring omission to the discussion. That is why, to the annoyance of some friends, I won't just go along with what they think is "right". It is complicated and I don't know enough to have any sort of nuanced opinion. For human interest, there was also a long story about a female swimmer that became male and went from being a "star" to barely able to make the team. But still wanted to compete.
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Post by swash on Feb 4, 2021 20:19:44 GMT -5
Why is it discriminatory to have a transgendered or nonbinary athlete compete with those who have the same genetic make up? About the only 2 sports where men do not have a big advantage are ping pong and tiddley winks. I don't know that it is or isn't discriminatory - the comment was general - no one should suffer discrimination. The solution isn't obvious, as there is a very small sample size and wildly differing opinions, even apparently among folks that know far more than I do. There was a long opinion piece in my daily paper's guest opinion pages today suggesting we have to let trans athletes compete in their chosen gender. The writer - a medical professional in the field - went on and on about the suicides and suffering of transgendered folks who are discriminated against. The writer chose not to mention the affect of this on other non-transgendered athletes - a glaring omission to the discussion. That is why, to the annoyance of some friends, I won't just go along with what they think is "right". It is complicated and I don't know enough to have any sort of nuanced opinion. For human interest, there was also a long story about a female swimmer that became male and went from being a "star" to barely able to make the team. But still wanted to compete. No one should suffer discrimination... of course. But in this case, either a handful or half the human population will be on the short end of the story. At early ages, mixing genders is acceptable, even preferred at times. There is room for common ground in some areas. We're all better off if we start these difficult discussions with finding all the points where we can agree rather than the opposite. Probably, starting with an edict isn't the optimal foundation for an open and affirming dialogue, where all positions and people are respected
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Feb 4, 2021 20:48:26 GMT -5
I think we all agree that this is an extremely difficult situation. But has always been "unfair" advantages in sports. It starts with money and access. Because there are societal advantages and disadvantages is not an argument for doing something that compounds their affects.
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Post by bulkey on Feb 5, 2021 13:40:21 GMT -5
I think there are very few instances in which trans students will compete against biologically-original women.
Yes, it can and does happen, but it's sort of like Ronald Reagan's welfare mom. There are always exceptions to intentions no matter what we do, and those exceptions get so much publicity that they seem to be the norm rather than the exception.
Overall, the pain caused to trans kids by not being allowed to compete seems to me to be greater than the pain it might cause to biologically-original women the few times this happens.
No easy answer, we all agree. We can only agree to disagree.
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Post by huskyharper on Apr 16, 2021 16:37:24 GMT -5
I would simply rephrase your comment to "in some cases is certainly biologically unfair". According to what I read a while back when this was a "hot" issue, it depends on certain factors, however, clearly, in many instances it is. It is one of many issues that defy an easy solution. Actually one of several I simply cannot even form an opinion as to the answer. Thankfully I don't have to. I certainly do agree with the concept that LGBTQ folks should not suffer discrimination. The devil is in the details. Why is it discriminatory to have a transgendered or nonbinary athlete compete with those who have the same genetic make up? About the only 2 sports where men do not have a big advantage are ping pong and tiddley winks. there is a third... equestrian sports (except polo) are non-gender differentiated. Women and men compete against each other aboard their horses, and the best Horse/Rider team wins. Olympic equestrian teams consist of the best horse/rider teams regardless of their genitalia (horse or rider).
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Post by huskymaniac on Apr 19, 2021 18:47:36 GMT -5
Overall, the pain caused to trans kids by not being allowed to compete seems to me to be greater than the pain it might cause to biologically-original women the few times this happens. No, it isn't. It isn't even close. The largest amount of pain is caused by the fact that trans kids are not being given the help they need.
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Post by vtcwbuff on May 1, 2021 16:57:07 GMT -5
"This is a question of fairness, that's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls sports in school," Jenner told TMZ. "It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls sports in our schools."
The "we mustn't discriminate" argument is BS. Everyone is discriminated against. Can't get into Harvard with a 900 SAT? Intellectual discrimination. Can't compete for Mr Universe because you're old and flabby. Physical discrimination. Can't join the marines because you're 75 years old? Age discrimination.
It really is very simple - biological males competing against biological female athletes is unfair. Fairness is the foundation of athletic competition.
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Post by huskymaniac on May 3, 2021 8:06:39 GMT -5
"This is a question of fairness, that's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls sports in school," Jenner told TMZ. "It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls sports in our schools."
The "we mustn't discriminate" argument is BS. Everyone is discriminated against. Can't get into Harvard with a 900 SAT? Intellectual discrimination. Can't compete for Mr Universe because you're old and flabby. Physical discrimination. Can't join the marines because you're 75 years old? Age discrimination.
It really is very simple - biological males competing against biological female athletes is unfair. Fairness is the foundation of athletic competition.
Well said. This is the problem with wanting "equity" versus equal opportunity. The answer to this "problem" is to have transgender sports leagues. Actually, check that, the answer is to provide people the help they need.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Jun 21, 2021 9:10:38 GMT -5
Belgium’s Anna Vanbellinghen, (a biological female) who will likely compete against Hubbard (a biological male) -
"Life-changing opportunities are missed for some athletes — medals and Olympic qualifications — and we are powerless. Of course, this debate is taking place in a broader context of discrimination against transgender people and that is why the question is never free of ideology."
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Post by vtcwbuff on Jun 24, 2021 16:34:53 GMT -5
"In 2017, CeCe Telfer finished 390th in the Men’s NCAA Division II 400m hurdles. In 2019, he (she) finished #1 in the Women’s 400m hurdles. Does this not say it all? The fact that some people even defend this, ironically as if they are the righteous ones, shows how insane we have gotten."
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Jun 24, 2021 20:10:04 GMT -5
"In 2017, CeCe Telfer finished 390th in the Men’s NCAA Division II 400m hurdles. In 2019, he (she) finished #1 in the Women’s 400m hurdles. Does this not say it all? The fact that some people even defend this, ironically as if they are the righteous ones, shows how insane we have gotten."
I don't know that her competing would be defensible, since the article reveals she is not eligible as she does not meet the requirements. As the article notes, the Olympics does permit Transgender athletes, but there are eligibility requirements apparently predominately relating to blood tests. I do not believe that simply being transgender should disqualify someone - but I have never said that there do not need to be standards.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Dec 8, 2021 13:58:33 GMT -5
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Post by vtcwbuff on Dec 9, 2021 12:08:52 GMT -5
I like what she had to say about the coach - apparently the only thing that counts is winning.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Dec 12, 2021 18:11:22 GMT -5
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