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Baldwin
Oct 23, 2021 8:37:17 GMT -5
Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 23, 2021 8:37:17 GMT -5
Did he point the gun? Did he pull the trigger? Two as yet unasked questions in the media.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 9:26:26 GMT -5
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 23, 2021 9:39:55 GMT -5
We now know the gun was loaded with at least 1 live round. Baldwin, a big opponent of gun rights, is ignorant or indifferent to the most basic of gun saftey rules. You treat every gun as if armed and never point it anywhere but down range and certainly never at a person (you don't intend to kill if necesssary). He did everything wrong including pulling the trigger. Negligent homicide at a minimum.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Oct 23, 2021 19:06:02 GMT -5
I got my first gun at age 8. Simple things I learned before I was allowed to carry it - impressed upon me was that every gun is loaded until you personally verify that it is not. A gun is never pointed at any living thing that you do not intend to kill and a finger is never inside a trigger guard unless you intend to fire the weapon.
What would possess an ignorant Baldwin, ignoring all of the simple things above, to point a weapon at a person and to pull the trigger. A real tragedy and all Baldwin's fault. Too stupid to check the weapon clear.
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Post by swash on Oct 23, 2021 19:54:13 GMT -5
I got my first gun at age 8. Simple things I learned before I was allowed to carry it - impressed upon me was that every gun is loaded until you personally verify that it is not. A gun is never pointed at any living thing that you do not intend to kill and a finger is never inside a trigger guard unless you intend to fire the weapon.
What would possess an ignorant Baldwin, ignoring all of the simple things above, to point a weapon at a person and to pull the trigger. A real tragedy and all Baldwin's fault. Too stupid to check the weapon clear.
I haven't seen details, but if the script says point the dummy gun and fire the blanks... that's a lot different from here's a gun, let me be sure it is empty. I am not a fan of the guy and am not excusing him, just saying that we need more information before we bury him. I too grew up with a deep respect for gun safety and responsibility.
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Baldwin
Oct 23, 2021 23:28:06 GMT -5
Post by knightsbridgeaz on Oct 23, 2021 23:28:06 GMT -5
I got my first gun at age 8. Simple things I learned before I was allowed to carry it - impressed upon me was that every gun is loaded until you personally verify that it is not. A gun is never pointed at any living thing that you do not intend to kill and a finger is never inside a trigger guard unless you intend to fire the weapon.
What would possess an ignorant Baldwin, ignoring all of the simple things above, to point a weapon at a person and to pull the trigger. A real tragedy and all Baldwin's fault. Too stupid to check the weapon clear.
I haven't seen details, but if the script says point the dummy gun and fire the blanks... that's a lot different from here's a gun, let me be sure it is empty. I am not a fan of the guy and am not excusing him, just saying that we need more information before we bury him. I too grew up with a deep respect for gun safety and responsibility. The only detail I read seemed to indicate it was a rehearsal. It shouldn't have had even blanks, apparently. I do not think it is the actors responsibility (on the set) to check the weapon. There are "armorers" who handle and set up the guns and they are supposed to be checked by 2 people. It appears from what I am reading that there was a lot of carelessness on set - Baldwin's stunt double had a similar incident although he didn't hit anyone. But I am going to stick to my point that I very much doubt the "talent" as it is called actually has a responsibility to check the firearms. Should they? Yes. But the responsibility "on set" is delegated elsewhere, I think.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Oct 24, 2021 7:04:25 GMT -5
The responsibility to check a weapon safe belongs to every single person that handles the weapon. Obviously, someone screwed up. Most likely the armorer, but also the guy who pulled the trigger. I don't know why they use real weapons anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2021 10:21:57 GMT -5
The responsibility to check a weapon safe belongs to every single person that handles the weapon. Obviously, someone screwed up. Most likely the armorer, but also the guy who pulled the trigger. I don't know why they use real weapons anyway. The armorer was a 24 year old with very little experience and someone who received her 'training' from her father who is also an armorer. So it appears the typical Hollywood nepotism is also in play here as well? The armorer is supposed to be present when they film or practice scenes with live weapons and he / she verifies the condition of the weapons, but, according to the news, the assistant director handed the weapon to Baldwin? From the different accounts I've read, it appears plenty of corners were cut and this assistant director has some history of safety problems? edition.cnn.com/2021/10/24/entertainment/rust-shooting-assistant-director-halls-complaints/index.html
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 24, 2021 16:05:49 GMT -5
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Oct 24, 2021 16:34:38 GMT -5
I'm with the article writer that he deserves charges as a producer, corners cut, safety procedures not in place, etc. If he pointed the gun at a person (not in accordance with production rules), manslaughter. Plus I gather the safety course that is part of all productions with weapons was never held. But I am sticking with the fact that he had no responsibility to check a prop gun. As I have read in numerous articles, it was supposed to be checked twice. The armorer and the assistant director who handed it to him telling him it was "cold", i.e. not loaded. The Assistant Director has apparently a history of safety violations and did not check the gun. Can't stand him, but wouldn't wish killing someone on anyone. The overarching point to me is - why are there any real bullets in prop guns?? Most productions don't use real guns anymore, it is all computer generated stuff. But even if you use a real gun - why would any gun around the "talent" have a bullet in it?? It makes no sense to me.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Oct 24, 2021 17:39:15 GMT -5
I wonder what the qualifications are to be a Hollywood "armorer?" Apparently this young lady was not all that comfortable in her job.
I'm sure when the dust settles blame will be assigned all the way down from the industry, to the producer(s), to the armorer, the AD and finally to the guy that pulled the trigger.
I think there is probably more than a little hypocrisy here too.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 24, 2021 18:01:01 GMT -5
I'm with the article writer that he deserves charges as a producer, corners cut, safety procedures not in place, etc. If he pointed the gun at a person (not in accordance with production rules), manslaughter. Plus I gather the safety course that is part of all productions with weapons was never held. But I am sticking with the fact that he had no responsibility to check a prop gun. As I have read in numerous articles, it was supposed to be checked twice. The armorer and the assistant director who handed it to him telling him it was "cold", i.e. not loaded. The Assistant Director has apparently a history of safety violations and did not check the gun. Can't stand him, but wouldn't wish killing someone on anyone. The overarching point to me is - why are there any real bullets in prop guns?? Most productions don't use real guns anymore, it is all computer generated stuff. But even if you use a real gun - why would any gun around the "talent" have a bullet in it?? It makes no sense to me. It's been reported that this gun was taken from the set and "played with" by some crew. It may be that they left one or more live rounds in it when it was returned to props. Long chain of negligence just got longer if the report is accurate. I no longer have the report so I can't give you a cite. It was on the Fox news channel this morning.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 25, 2021 9:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by UConnChapette on Oct 25, 2021 15:11:45 GMT -5
No matter where the fault lies, it is a tragedy all around, and the consequences of which a lot of people have to live with for the rest of their lives. The family, the actor, the directors, the armorers, the crew that was allegedly "playing around" with it. (Why in God's name wasn't it locked up?)
Sounds like there were multiple points of failure here. Lots of blame to go around. And lots of opportunities to catch the mistake before Baldwin pulled the trigger in what he, apparently, thought was a cold gun and okay to fire.
I am also not a Alec Baldwin fan. But unintentionally taking the life of another person and the guilt that he will carry with him as the one who fired the gun is not something I would wish on him or anyone else.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 28, 2021 9:31:37 GMT -5
The Fox News report from last night continues to confirm that this was a somewhat loose set with no definitive protocol about who handles guns before they were given to an actor on set. In addition they reported a large quantity of live and dummy rounds were lying loose on a table on set, contradicting the armorer's claim that there we no live range on set. A large quantity of live rounds were also found in the truck containing the gun safe. Those rounds were also not secured.
An earlier report stated that the dummy rounds were identical to live rounds except they had a hole on the side of the case. If true the armorer's asserted method of checking the gun for live rounds would not work. Flipping open the gun and peering at the back of the cylinders would identify empty cylinders but you could not tell live from dummy rounds. For that you'd have to empty the gun and reload.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Oct 28, 2021 10:16:42 GMT -5
The Fox News report from last night continues to confirm that this was a somewhat loose set with no definitive protocol about who handles guns before they were given to an actor on set. In addition they reported a large quantity of live and dummy rounds were lying loose on a table on set, contradicting the armorer's claim that there we no live range on set. A large quantity of live rounds were also found in the truck containing the gun safe. Those rounds were also not secured. An earlier report stated that the dummy rounds were identical to live rounds except they had a hole on the side of the case. If true the armorer's asserted method of checking the gun for live rounds would not work. Flipping open the gun and peering at the back of the cylinders would identify empty cylinders but you could not tell live from dummy rounds. For that you'd have to empty the gun and reload. There are quite a few reports now that gun safety on the set was very lax. Apparently this "armorer" had safety issues on the only other movie that she worked on. However, I still contend that Baldwin is at least partially responsible. All he had to do was check that the gun was empty. A simple matter of flipping the cylinder. Since this was a rehearsal there should have been nothing in the gun.
Considering the amount of violent movies produced in Hollywood I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often.
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Post by swash on Oct 28, 2021 11:31:27 GMT -5
The Fox News report from last night continues to confirm that this was a somewhat loose set with no definitive protocol about who handles guns before they were given to an actor on set. In addition they reported a large quantity of live and dummy rounds were lying loose on a table on set, contradicting the armorer's claim that there we no live range on set. A large quantity of live rounds were also found in the truck containing the gun safe. Those rounds were also not secured. An earlier report stated that the dummy rounds were identical to live rounds except they had a hole on the side of the case. If true the armorer's asserted method of checking the gun for live rounds would not work. Flipping open the gun and peering at the back of the cylinders would identify empty cylinders but you could not tell live from dummy rounds. For that you'd have to empty the gun and reload. There are quite a few reports now that gun safety on the set was very lax. Apparently this "armorer" had safety issues on the only other movie that she worked on. However, I still contend that Baldwin is at least partially responsible. All he had to do was check that the gun was empty. A simple matter of flipping the cylinder. Since this was a rehearsal there should have been nothing in the gun.
Considering the amount of violent movies produced in Hollywood I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often. I think that there are two critical questions: 1. Did he think he was holding an empty gun? If so, checking that fact would have been simple and make sense. However, if he was supposed to "grab the weapon and fire blanks at the camera" That is entirely different. He's not responsible to know the difference between blanks and live ammo. In fact, he should be able to presume that there are no live bullets on site at all. Certainly none in a gun he is supposed to fire as part of a scene. 2. Was he casually handling and "pretending to fire" during a break - perhaps just joking around, or were his actions specifically scripted? If scripted, he has little choice but to rely on the people who set up the scene and the props. If not, then every action he takes with that pistol is absolutely his responsibility. He must check it, point it responsibly, only pull the trigger in safe circumstances - no matter who loaded it.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 28, 2021 12:38:26 GMT -5
The Fox News report from last night continues to confirm that this was a somewhat loose set with no definitive protocol about who handles guns before they were given to an actor on set. In addition they reported a large quantity of live and dummy rounds were lying loose on a table on set, contradicting the armorer's claim that there we no live range on set. A large quantity of live rounds were also found in the truck containing the gun safe. Those rounds were also not secured. An earlier report stated that the dummy rounds were identical to live rounds except they had a hole on the side of the case. If true the armorer's asserted method of checking the gun for live rounds would not work. Flipping open the gun and peering at the back of the cylinders would identify empty cylinders but you could not tell live from dummy rounds. For that you'd have to empty the gun and reload. There are quite a few reports now that gun safety on the set was very lax. Apparently this "armorer" had safety issues on the only other movie that she worked on. However, I still contend that Baldwin is at least partially responsible. All he had to do was check that the gun was empty. A simple matter of flipping the cylinder. Since this was a rehearsal there should have been nothing in the gun.
Considering the amount of violent movies produced in Hollywood I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often. Of course Baldwin is culpable. Anyone who picks up a gun is responsible for the safe handling of the weapon including knowing what is in it, whether there is a round (live or dead) under the hammer, etc. I'm relatively sure the gun was a replica Colt 6. I have 2 - a 357 and a 45 Long Colt. They are great guns, but single actions really have to be respected.
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Post by UConnChapette on Oct 28, 2021 18:30:59 GMT -5
I have watched several segments on this incident and everything I hear is that EVERYONE who handles the gun is responsible for confirming it is safe. The armorer should confirm it is safe before handing off to the assistant director. Assistant director should confirm the gun is “cold” before handing it to the actor. Finally the actor is to do a final check before the scene starts to be filmed.
This was a colossal failure from top down. An inexperienced armorer was hired who had problem with safety on the only other film she worked on. An Assistant Director who also has had reported safety issues on prior films. An an actor (and producer of the film) who we all know has an enormous ego and quite possibly the attitude that ensuring firearm safety is beneath him.
None of this brings any comfort to the victims.
Baldwin is apparently in seclusion. Media a bit too hot for this infamous hot head who is frequently quick to attack others.
I am not sure if criminal charges will be brought. Negligent manslaughter, perhaps. But civil suits could be forthcoming. If it were my loved one, I would sue the pants off everyone with even the slightest culpability. This was entirely preventable.
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Post by vtcwbuff on Oct 28, 2021 20:43:32 GMT -5
I have watched several segments on this incident and everything I hear is that EVERYONE who handles the gun is responsible for confirming it is safe. The armorer should confirm it is safe before handing off to the assistant director. Assistant director should confirm the gun is “cold” before handing it to the actor. Finally the actor is to do a final check before the scene starts to be filmed. This was a colossal failure from top down. An inexperienced armorer was hired who had problem with safety on the only other film she worked on. An Assistant Director who also has had reported safety issues on prior films. An an actor (and producer of the film) who we all know has an enormous ego and quite possibly the attitude that ensuring firearm safety is beneath him. None of this brings any comfort to the victims. Baldwin is apparently in seclusion. Media a bit too hot for this infamous hot head who is frequently quick to attack others. I am not sure if criminal charges will be brought. Negligent manslaughter, perhaps. But civil suits could be forthcoming. If it were my loved one, I would sue the pants off everyone with even the slightest culpability. This was entirely preventable. Most of my life was spent around guns. In the military I qualified on at least a half dozen small arms including pistol "expert" and rifle "marksman". I competed for several years as a member of a military pistol team. Anyone that has any training with firearms knows that the #1 sacrosanct cardinal rule is that anyone who is handed a weapon is responsible to check it safe. In this case that would include Baldwin.
I too would be sueing everyone involved from the production company, to the armorer (apparently a loser), to the AD to Baldwin. Hopefully, this tragedy will result in the film industry getting a better handle on firearm safety on set.
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Post by rockymtblue2 on Oct 30, 2021 8:33:11 GMT -5
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Post by knightsbridgeaz on Oct 31, 2021 18:46:04 GMT -5
I have watched several segments on this incident and everything I hear is that EVERYONE who handles the gun is responsible for confirming it is safe. The armorer should confirm it is safe before handing off to the assistant director. Assistant director should confirm the gun is “cold” before handing it to the actor. Finally the actor is to do a final check before the scene starts to be filmed. This was a colossal failure from top down. An inexperienced armorer was hired who had problem with safety on the only other film she worked on. An Assistant Director who also has had reported safety issues on prior films. An an actor (and producer of the film) who we all know has an enormous ego and quite possibly the attitude that ensuring firearm safety is beneath him. None of this brings any comfort to the victims. Baldwin is apparently in seclusion. Media a bit too hot for this infamous hot head who is frequently quick to attack others. I am not sure if criminal charges will be brought. Negligent manslaughter, perhaps. But civil suits could be forthcoming. If it were my loved one, I would sue the pants off everyone with even the slightest culpability. This was entirely preventable. Most of my life was spent around guns. In the military I qualified on at least a half dozen small arms including pistol "expert" and rifle "marksman". I competed for several years as a member of a military pistol team. Anyone that has any training with firearms knows that the #1 sacrosanct cardinal rule is that anyone who is handed a weapon is responsible to check it safe. In this case that would include Baldwin.
I too would be sueing everyone involved from the production company, to the armorer (apparently a loser), to the AD to Baldwin. Hopefully, this tragedy will result in the film industry getting a better handle on firearm safety on set.
Huge article I read today from, IIRC, the LA times. The article said the number one rule that was violated was pointing the gun at someone. Even accidentally, while trying to line up a camera angle. Plus all the lax procedures around weapons on this set. I hope everyone involved is "black-listed". I'm not sure calling the armorer a "loser" is fair. Just inexperienced and probably signing on to do something she isn't really qualified for, no matter how good her father may be at it. Likewise, should not be permitted in this line of work going forward. Quite possibly lied about weapons on set. However, several articles stated again in various ways that there is no set rule in filmmaking about the "talent" checking the weapon - in some union contracts they are apparently forbidden from doing so, on some sets they are indeed asked to. The standard protocols - if followed - apparently include upwards to 3 checks before a weapon is handed to the talent. The actors supposedly have had safety training regarding handling a prop gun in general but are not necessarily qualified to examine the weapon. This whole thing would have been avoided if they just end having real weapons on sets. They are not necessary these days. I have virtually no experience with firearms - my Uncle collected and hunted with them but kept them locked up from kids and I never spent a lot of time with him, and my father, who was apparently an excellent shot, didn't enjoy guns and didn't keep any (he was challenged to a skeet and target shooting wager when I was about 12 (he would have been 60 and I have no idea when he last handled weapons) and he killed it, including not missing at all on the skeet shooting). But even with no real firearms in the house I was drilled about not pointing at people and checking that they are empty. Even an antique air pump BB gun from his youth that wasn't really quite operational, if I wanted to play with it, I had to check it.
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Baldwin
Nov 1, 2021 10:17:01 GMT -5
Post by rockymtblue2 on Nov 1, 2021 10:17:01 GMT -5
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Baldwin
Nov 1, 2021 10:35:41 GMT -5
Post by rockymtblue2 on Nov 1, 2021 10:35:41 GMT -5
Most of my life was spent around guns. In the military I qualified on at least a half dozen small arms including pistol "expert" and rifle "marksman". I competed for several years as a member of a military pistol team. Anyone that has any training with firearms knows that the #1 sacrosanct cardinal rule is that anyone who is handed a weapon is responsible to check it safe. In this case that would include Baldwin.
I too would be sueing everyone involved from the production company, to the armorer (apparently a loser), to the AD to Baldwin. Hopefully, this tragedy will result in the film industry getting a better handle on firearm safety on set.
Huge article I read today from, IIRC, the LA times. The article said the number one rule that was violated was pointing the gun at someone. Even accidentally, while trying to line up a camera angle. Plus all the lax procedures around weapons on this set. I hope everyone involved is "black-listed". I'm not sure calling the armorer a "loser" is fair. Just inexperienced and probably signing on to do something she isn't really qualified for, no matter how good her father may be at it. Likewise, should not be permitted in this line of work going forward. Quite possibly lied about weapons on set. However, several articles stated again in various ways that there is no set rule in filmmaking about the "talent" checking the weapon - in some union contracts they are apparently forbidden from doing so, on some sets they are indeed asked to. The standard protocols - if followed - apparently include upwards to 3 checks before a weapon is handed to the talent. The actors supposedly have had safety training regarding handling a prop gun in general but are not necessarily qualified to examine the weapon. This whole thing would have been avoided if they just end having real weapons on sets. They are not necessary these days. I have virtually no experience with firearms - my Uncle collected and hunted with them but kept them locked up from kids and I never spent a lot of time with him, and my father, who was apparently an excellent shot, didn't enjoy guns and didn't keep any (he was challenged to a skeet and target shooting wager when I was about 12 (he would have been 60 and I have no idea when he last handled weapons) and he killed it, including not missing at all on the skeet shooting). But even with no real firearms in the house I was drilled about not pointing at people and checking that they are empty. Even an antique air pump BB gun from his youth that wasn't really quite operational, if I wanted to play with it, I had to check it. That's an interesting set of rules for actors....saftey training to handle a weapon but not trained to examine it. Semantic nonsense and the movie industry does not get to set the saftey rules. Those are set by gun industry standards. In the case of a single six revolver you have to be able to swing out the cylinder to check the loaded/unloaded status for your own saftey and the saftey of those around you .
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Post by huskyharper on Nov 1, 2021 14:28:41 GMT -5
Just because someone is a good theatrical (movie,tv, theater) actor, doesn't make them a good person. It also doesn't make their opinions worth more than anyone else's, usually less than anyone else's! That said, I can't stand Baldwin's off-screen behavior. He's a compete arse IMHO. His hatred of the 2nd Amendment is legendary, and so hypocritical considering how he makes his $$$. He should be sued up one side and down the other as not only the trigger-man but also the Producer of this movie. That makes him doubly responsible for this woman's death. If he had an ounce of decency, he'd admit his culpability and publicly take a firearm safety class with the NRA. They are the experts in this. And he should hire an NRA-trained armorer for all his movies. Just my opinion. And yes, my firearms are all stored, unloaded; and when I take them out the first thing I do is check that they are unloaded. Even though I'm the one who put them away.
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