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Post by linkster on Mar 29, 2024 14:58:14 GMT -5
Please, in any evaluation take into account that Paige has only really played two seasons healthy. And that in her years here she's had COVD and the loss EVERY YEAR of significant players to injuries. She has never even begun to play the game with a full deck. So it's just not fair to compare to her to people who played without these terrible circumstances surrounding them. As a pure player, of course she's on the Mount. You just can't use typical measuring sticks. Sorry, but it's true and if I were Phil, I'd show you some numbers. Half of our team this year is in sweats, for the love a Mike. For a lot of the Rushmore voters having a healthy and successful team around you is a requirement. I believe that titles are an achievement of a team, not a player. I also think that calling an E8 appearance a failed season is conceited and the result of fans who chug Geno's koolade. Clark is being touted by some as the greatest player ever and last I looked her mantle has no NCAA title trophies. My list of great college players includes Clark Maravich & Bird but maybe I should erase those names? Should the greatest pitchers of all-time be judged primarily on how many world series titles they won? If you want to talk golf, tennis or any individual sport then titles is a very relevant component. Starting Pitchers with Most World Series Titles PITCHER TITLES TEAMS Lefty Gomez 6 Yankees Vic Raschi 6 Yankees Allie Reynolds 6 Yankees Red Ruffing 6 Yankees Whitey Ford 6 Yankees Catfish Hunter 5 A’s, Yankees Eddie Lopat 5 Yankees Andy Pettitte 5 Yankees Spud Chandler 4 Yankees David Cone 4 Yankees Bump Hadley 4 Yankees Jack Morris 4 Tigers, Twins, Jays Monte Pearson 4 Yankees Herb Pennock 4 Yankees No wonder the Yankees were so dominant, they had 13 of the 14 best pitchers of all time. Or were these pitchers just fortunate to be on great Yankee teams?
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Post by meyers7 on Mar 29, 2024 16:02:18 GMT -5
Stats can be misleading. By stats Clark is much, much better than Bueckers. Is that what you're implying?
But yes, so far, this season has been really good.
If She could carry the team to a NC, then sure it would be considered a great season. Getting a NC this year and then again next year would probably get her on the Mt. But we have to wait and see if that actually happens.
Would you agree that Paige is good enough to lead a team to the confetti? That this team around her is (wonderful and inexplicably successful under the circumstances) not good enough around her for that outcome to be ... expected? Well let's use an example. DT (Jr) vs Bueckers (Jr) JMoore (So) vs Edwards (Sr 3rd team AA) big edge Edwards Conlon (SO) vs Muhl (Sr all time leading assists) decent edge to Muhl Strother (Fr) vs Shade (Fr) fairly close but I'd give the edge to Strothers Battle (So) vs Arnold (Fr) fairly close again eh Toss up Bench, yea, DT had a better bench at least more bodies (Crockett, Turner and Valley). But I'd say Bueckers has a better starting lineup. But DT took them 37-1 to a NC. Can Bueckers do the same? We'll see.
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Post by meyers7 on Mar 29, 2024 16:24:27 GMT -5
I think by any measuring stick (and I believe Phil has already posted them all elsewhere), our Paige has had the absolute best year statistically of any current player in WCBB. I also think that if we (and I'm too lazy to) pulled out the stats for Stewie, Maya, DT or anyone else in UCONN history we'd see that PAIGE is head-and-shoulders above them all. That she will NOT be granted the NPOY and other National awards is a travesty of media. She will however, win all of our awards. Well let's see. Here's some measures. Points Clark 1113 (31.8) Bueckers 785 (21.8) FG % Bueckers 54% Clark 46% 3pt Bueckers 42% (made 76) Clark 38% (made 181) Clark made 1 less than Bueckers took Rebounds Clark 257 Bueckers 183 Assists Clark 307 Bueckers 140 A/TO Bueckers 2.7 Clark 1.80 Steals/blocks Bueckers 80/49 Clark 63/18 So it's definitely not "absolutely" the best year statistically. Efficiently and defensively, Bueckers is a above. But in the big 3 Points/rebounds/assists it's not really close for Clark. It's not a travesty that Clark is gonna win all those awards. She deserves them.
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tipin
Purebred Husky
Posts: 272
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Post by tipin on Mar 29, 2024 16:42:25 GMT -5
Please, in any evaluation take into account that Paige has only really played two seasons healthy. And that in her years here she's had COVD and the loss EVERY YEAR of significant players to injuries. She has never even begun to play the game with a full deck. So it's just not fair to compare to her to people who played without these terrible circumstances surrounding them. As a pure player, of course she's on the Mount. You just can't use typical measuring sticks. Sorry, but it's true and if I were Phil, I'd show you some numbers. Half of our team this year is in sweats, for the love a Mike. For a lot of the Rushmore voters having a healthy and successful team around you is a requirement. I believe that titles are an achievement of a team, not a player. I also think that calling an E8 appearance a failed season is conceited and the result of fans who chug Geno's koolade. Clark is being touted by some as the greatest player ever and last I looked her mantle has no NCAA title trophies. My list of great college players includes Clark Maravich & Bird but maybe I should erase those names? Should the greatest pitchers of all-time be judged primarily on how many world series titles they won? If you want to talk golf, tennis or any individual sport then titles is a very relevant component. Starting Pitchers with Most World Series Titles PITCHER TITLES TEAMS Lefty Gomez 6 Yankees Vic Raschi 6 Yankees Allie Reynolds 6 Yankees Red Ruffing 6 Yankees Whitey Ford 6 Yankees Catfish Hunter 5 A’s, Yankees Eddie Lopat 5 Yankees Andy Pettitte 5 Yankees Spud Chandler 4 Yankees David Cone 4 Yankees Bump Hadley 4 Yankees Jack Morris 4 Tigers, Twins, Jays Monte Pearson 4 Yankees Herb Pennock 4 Yankees No wonder the Yankees were so dominant, they had 13 of the 14 best pitchers of all time. Or were these pitchers just fortunate to be on great Yankee teams? Who could imagine Whitey Ford not being deemed one of the greats if the Yankees had not won a World Series Or, Equally silly How many great WCBB players would there be if the measuring bar was deemed to be triple doubles?
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Post by swash on Mar 29, 2024 18:00:41 GMT -5
Would you agree that Paige is good enough to lead a team to the confetti? That this team around her is (wonderful and inexplicably successful under the circumstances) not good enough around her for that outcome to be ... expected? Well let's use an example. DT (Jr) vs Bueckers (Jr) JMoore (So) vs Edwards (Sr 3rd team AA) big edge Edwards Conlon (SO) vs Muhl (Sr all time leading assists) decent edge to Muhl Strother (Fr) vs Shade (Fr) fairly close but I'd give the edge to Strothers Battle (So) vs Arnold (Fr) fairly close again eh Toss up Bench, yea, DT had a better bench at least more bodies (Crockett, Turner and Valley). But I'd say Bueckers has a better starting lineup. But DT took them 37-1 to a NC. Can Bueckers do the same? We'll see. ... and how many truly good teams were there then. DT herself has said (several years back ... 16?) that her teams could not win against teams from ... "today".
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Post by semper on Mar 29, 2024 18:05:23 GMT -5
Yeah, the competition would be another factor, wouldn't it?
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Post by linkster on Mar 29, 2024 18:37:44 GMT -5
Yeah, the competition would be another factor, wouldn't it? That's why any comparison is meaningless. The FF is two games and a mediocre player can have the best game of their lives in the FF while a star can flame out.
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Post by meyers7 on Apr 1, 2024 8:24:35 GMT -5
Well let's use an example. DT (Jr) vs Bueckers (Jr) JMoore (So) vs Edwards (Sr 3rd team AA) big edge Edwards Conlon (SO) vs Muhl (Sr all time leading assists) decent edge to Muhl Strother (Fr) vs Shade (Fr) fairly close but I'd give the edge to Strothers Battle (So) vs Arnold (Fr) fairly close again eh Toss up Bench, yea, DT had a better bench at least more bodies (Crockett, Turner and Valley). But I'd say Bueckers has a better starting lineup. But DT took them 37-1 to a NC. Can Bueckers do the same? We'll see. ... and how many truly good teams were there then. DT herself has said (several years back ... 16?) that her teams could not win against teams from ... "today". You can only beat the teams in front of you. (are those goalposts hard to move?)
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Post by semper on Apr 1, 2024 9:42:52 GMT -5
Yeah, it's too bad. But Paige will be a great great bball coach sometime and I hope I live to see it. She really understands the game. I guess we need a second Rushmore for people who for one reason or another didn't win natties but were still truly fabulous. I nominate Paige for this and also Feesa.
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Post by swash on Apr 1, 2024 13:47:10 GMT -5
... and how many truly good teams were there then. DT herself has said (several years back ... 16?) that her teams could not win against teams from ... "today". You can only beat the teams in front of you. (are those goalposts hard to move?) This entire discussion has been about us having different goalposts. Criticizing my point is gladly accepted, but I've been consistent that I think your criteria lays an uneven playing field, given the difference in teammates and competition and a few other things. I agree that Diana's accomplishments were otherworldly. Paige doesn't have to surpass those to get onto the mountain ... but I agree that that story has not been fully written yet. The top tier of the remaining players.... I say yes, you say no... hardly a big margin between us.
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Post by doggydaddy on Apr 1, 2024 14:20:09 GMT -5
I think Moore, Strother, Turner, Battle, Crockett and Conlon would take issue with that. And following Taurasi's departure came the dark times. with Strother, Turner, Battle and Crockett. Sweet 16, Elite 8, Elite 8. That Championship was Taurasi's. Without her there would be no NC and a disappointing season. For sure without Taurasi they don’t win championships. But you denigrated the other players. I disagreed.
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Post by meyers7 on Apr 2, 2024 8:35:41 GMT -5
You can only beat the teams in front of you. (are those goalposts hard to move?) This entire discussion has been about us having different goalposts. Criticizing my point is gladly accepted, but I've been consistent that I think your criteria lays an uneven playing field, given the difference in teammates and competition and a few other things. I agree that Diana's accomplishments were otherworldly. Paige doesn't have to surpass those to get onto the mountain ... but I agree that that story has not been fully written yet. The top tier of the remaining players.... I say yes, you say no... hardly a big margin between us. That's kind of the point. You do have to do something(s) otherworldly to get on the Mt. If Bueckers were to get a NC this year, it wouldn't be any more otherworldly than DT's run (probably a little less as I've mentioned with the teammates). BUT it would be certainly as unexpected as DT's run. But in a very different way. Coming into DT's Jr year, UCONN had just lost 4 Srs/starters from the greatest team ever at UCONN. There were no expectations of anything that year. To pull off a 37-1 NC was a miracle of miracles (props to Motel). This year however, expectations going into the season were an undefeated NC. But that quickly blew up with all the injuries. But to come back from all those injuries and get a NC. Surely a miracle. (maybe not a miracle of miracles, maybe)
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